Theistic Belief In Poor Taste
The Friendly Atheist's interview with Brian Sapient is up. And here's what Sapient had to say in answer to my question.
Thanks, Brian! And keep up the good work!
HM: Do you ever have second thoughts as to whether or not openly defiant acts such as the Blasphemy Challenge or the Bible Recycling Program are perhaps in poor taste? (From AustinAtheist)It's true! It's true!
BS: Of course, doubt is good, it’s healthy. It’s because I doubt, re-analyze, and second guess myself that I am able to admit when I’m wrong. You should know that we’re very open to constructive criticism; on the other hand deconstructive criticism is a pet peeve. With that said, I don’t see much at the present time that we are doing that I regret or would want to do much differently had I had a second chance. And for the record, I think theistic belief itself is in poor taste, it’s an insult to human intellect.
Thanks, Brian! And keep up the good work!
13 comments:
first of all, you're taking more of an anti-theistic approach than atheistic.
Second, theistic belief is in no way bad taste considering true believers are kind hearted people that would never equate finding Jesus in a dog's ass like your unsightly and disrespectful posting falsifies.
To say that stuff makes you look childish and immature. If you find juvenile humor in things like that, then why would anyone want to be atheist when they can believe in God and serve more of a purpose than looking at dog's asses. It wasn't even clever... So much for not insulting the human intellect right?
You need to do your homework before you bash God. There is a lot of evidence and research that proves His existence and justifies belief if you would only take the time.
Even in scientific "theories" that so many atheists follow, there is proof of God and Creation. The world is too perfectly placed to be chance and that isn't even scratching the surface. Have an open mind.
People always seem to have such a problem with theology. I don't see why. The biggest message it teaches is love. Whats so wrong with that? I'll pray for you and I hope you will open your heart to God.
Dom
"first of all, you're taking more of an anti-theistic approach than atheistic."
Spare me your desperate neologisms.
"Second, theistic belief is in no way bad taste considering true believers..."
And no true Scotsman ever put sugar on his porridge.
"...are kind hearted people that would never equate finding Jesus in a dog's ass like your unsightly and disrespectful posting falsifies."
Equate to what? Falsify what exactly? That's just fucking incoherent.
"To say that stuff makes you look childish and immature. If you find juvenile humor in things like that, then why would anyone want to be atheist when they can believe in God and serve more of a purpose than looking at dog's asses. It wasn't even clever... So much for not insulting the human intellect right?"
Pareidolia. Look it up.
"You need to do your homework before you bash God."
I've done my fucking homework, you presumptuous jackass.
"There is a lot of evidence and research that proves His existence and justifies belief if you would only take the time."
For instance...
"Even in scientific 'theories' that so many atheists follow, there is proof of God and Creation."
Then why the scare quotes?
"The world is too perfectly placed to be chance and that isn't even scratching the surface."
Ever notice that your arms just so happen to be long enough to reach your hands?
"Have an open mind."
Pot meets kettle.
"People always seem to have such a problem with theology. I don't see why."
You don't know shit.
"The biggest message it teaches is love. Whats so wrong with that?"
Might as well get it over with and tell me I'm going to Hell. That would be lovely.
"I'll pray for you and I hope you will open your heart to God."
Don't bother. Not likely.
Sincerely,
Bob
P.S. Go fuck yourself.
P.P.S. Hard.
It always seems like atheists answer with snide remarks and insults. Guess that's just what you wanna be a part of. Every debate I have seen between an atheist and a Christian always has some atheist comical relief and insulting comment. They never attack the question head on. It always beating around the bush. That's fine I guess if all you want to do is make stupid comments at things people say to you in an attempt to undermine their words without giving real answers. I guess that's all atheism has to offer. You should find truth instead of cursing about someone reaching out. Hopefully one day you will see. By the way, I would never tell you that you are going to Hell or condemn you. I have no part in that. It's your choice.
Dom
P.S.- Still love you as a human and Brother in Christ
P.P.S-- Not in a gay way just in case you were gonna twist it.
http://doesgodexist.org/AboutClayton/PastLife.html
Please read this in its entirety and get back to me. Thanks,
Dom
You come trolling and expect a polite response? That's just absurd.
I read the article. Yawn.
I'm not as short-worded as my brother in this instance, mostly because it's been a while since I've done a decent fundie troll roast. Anyway:
Those snide remarks involved pointing out your fallacies, Dom. Try reading them and not getting distracted by the shiny snark.
Besides, what question? Most "questions" theists bring out have been answered over a century ago. Many even longer. Quite frankly, though, they're the ones who are supposed to be answering questions. You're the ones making the positive claim, therefore you have the burden of proof. What sort of evidence would support or refute the existence of your deity and why?
If anyone's "beating around the bush," it's the theists. After all, you just played word games, hence the No True Scotsman fallacy my brother pointed out earlier, among others.
Unless you've got the world's most clever argument I've never heard, I find the very idea of Hell is an evil endorsement of violence and depravity.
Oh, and for the gay stuff, you should be policing your own. We generally have zero problems with gays. It's usually the theists who'll use any remote association with homosexuality as justification to blindly dismiss arguments.
Oh, and our atheism is a natural conclusion of thinking scientifically. Science has quite a lot to offer us. Thank your doctor for the evidence-based medicine. I haven't seen anything from gods, and their worshipers have a habit of providing a lot of negatives. Your first post showed a lot of that.
When you can provide a scientific definition, appropriate hypotheses, and tests, I'll be around.
Dom,
Please read this in its entirety and get back to me. Thanks.
Sincerely,
Bob
I have no problem with gays in the sense of discriminating. I just follow what it says in the Bible and I'm sure you both know that Leviticus is pretty clear about it.
There's plenty of scientific evidence, but there's too much to just start listing things so you let me know what you would like to hear and I'd be happy to get answers for you. I 'm not trying to beat around the bush, I'd just rather you ask questions and I can answer them scientifically so as to avoid any unnecessary babbling about all the proof out there. I'd rather just get to the point of what you have questions about.
Just to start though, lets talk of two things that exemplify perfection and placement in the cosmic "accident" that you believe in.
First, is the flagellum. If you see the break down of the organism, you could tell that it looks and operates like a little motor. So much so that if any one piece was taken away, it would not operate anymore. It is so small, yet so perfectly placed together and is only one small example of how the human body is perfectly pieced together to operate and function.
Next is the position of the Earth in the solar system. If the Big Bang happened, the chance of the Earth landing where it is and being livable by "accident" is such a small billionth, billionth, etc. of a shot that it doesn't even make sense to fathom it. It is easy to see that it was perfectly placed in the solar system for life to exist.
Here are two examples showing design and why someone would have had to place these things where they are instead of a cosmic accident.
Like i said, I would be happy to answer any questions because there is way too much info to throw right onto this page, but with specific questions I can throughly answer specifics instead. Look forward to hearing from you guys. I'm happy we are talking.
Dom
CB200.1 and the Texas Sharpshooter.
Next.
Ok, as far as the flagellum go, it shows the evolution but doesn't prove how a single celled organism could have the knowledge or accidentally have the innate genetic code to develop by its own accord. The best way for me to argue back would be what was the cause of this process. My argument as you already know would be that God developed it and put the cause in place.
Then, with the sharpshooter thing, I am guessing your refuting the way that I said the planet is perfectly here, therefore, God. However, my conclusion is with the Ex Ante in mind that God was there in the first place and then viewing the subject of Earth after the fact. so then the texas sharpshooter would not apply as the wiki article says.
The same could even be said about the Big Bang theory if need be. In that case the "painted target" would be the idea that a cosmic explosion caused it.
I feel like the responses don't disprove or prove anything, but place us both in a stalemate where we can say well I think this was the reason or I think that was the reason. Seems very circular if you know what I mean.
You're up to ask the question, unless you would like to continue on these two, but I think there's much more to explore elsewhere. So shoot....
I have a feeling you're using a rather creative definition of "knowledge."
The stuff you're talking about though, is covered in the details of biochemistry, which is not my forte. Here's a video describing just one hypothetical process of how those amino acids got in there. Generally looks better to me than "a magic man done it."
As for your stuff about the Texas sharpshooter, you seem to have failed to understand.
Let's say someone wins the lottery. It's very unlikely that they would have won. That doesn't mean that they cheated or that someone deliberately arranged for them to receive the winning ticket: There are lots and lots of tickets out there.
There are lots and lots of stars and planets out there in the universe. It's not at all surprising that one would win. If it wasn't this ball of rock we're on, it'd be some other rock that'd have a chance at evolving critters smart enough to wonder why their rock and not this one. They'd be painting the bullseye around their planet instead of this one.
You're also working backwards: It's not that the world is perfect for us, it's that we adapted for it.
Yea I understand what you mean about it, but my point is that ultimately, God can always be the cause that made that one planet work or that made us adaptable.
I think instead of going back and forth I should just leave with some final parting thoughts. Now mind you I'm not putting up the white flag in our debate, but just choosing to lay it all out there.
I took the same path you guys are taking, or at least I tried to take that path once. I tried to get away from where I am at different points in my life. It wasn't full-fledged atheism because I never got that far, but it was along the lines of not caring and wanting to be left alone. In all those times, I never could stay away. I always felt something pulling me back and more so, I always felt an unfulfillable emptiness inside of me that only was satisfied when I'm close to God.
Now I may be wrong and you both seem to have strongly made up your mind, but I'm sure there's some kind of emptiness that can never seem to be filled and I can assure you that God is that way to fill it. You may not want to understand that or accept it because of where you stand, but I have seen time and again that He is the last piece to the puzzle that people can never find.
Believing in God is easy, but atheism is hard. Like I said, I tried. I'm only 19 and have seen so much evidence in my life of fate instead of chance that I can't accept anything else. God makes it easy for us to believe. Atheism is hard and I'm sure frustrating because you study and work hard for hours to develop knowledge and science, only so that someone can come along and say, "well God just did it all", because as far as I can see, no one has ever disproved God, through science or any other means. But, that's just it... God makes it easy and it even shows that in the Bible. I'm not just some lazy person that stands here and says "Well God..." either. I have put my time in to study as well, but in the end, the fact remains that this argument will always stand and that Believing is easy but not believing is the most difficult part.
What I will say is to just keep an open mind to it and give God a chance. Read a book called the "Screw Tape Letters" by C.S Lewis. I can clear the air for you both on how our minds are worked and tweaked to think things. But just stay open.
Whats the worst that could happen? You believe and go to Heaven if I'm right, but if I'm not, you just turn to dust like you've already been planning, but the whole time you would have been living your life in a better way. Even if you strip down the spiritual aspect of the Bible, it is still a great model for the moral and ethical code that we should all have for each other with great principles. It can make us all better people, so like I said just keep an open mind and give it a try. Maybe you have before, but I can assure you that there's a right way and a wrong way to approach it. It's worth it to give God a chance because like I said, there's nothing to lose.
I'd be happy to talk or help you guys out if you have anymore questions or would like to ask some stuff about how to give God a chance. e-mail- italiandi88@aol.com
You can email me there or post on the blog.
Thanks for your time guys and talking back and forth with me. It's good to have contact with you both.
Dom
Dom said:
Yea I understand what you mean about it, but my point is that ultimately, God can always be the cause that made that one planet work or that made us adaptable.
Not without evidence.
I always felt something pulling me back and more so, I always felt an unfulfillable emptiness inside of me that only was satisfied when I'm close to God.
I've been feeling more fulfilled ever since I became an atheist. Lets me focus on the people and ideals that are really important. Religiosity in my experience, deadened people. They used words like "love" in the same breath they'd use to rationalize why it's okay for God to send people to eternal torture in Hell.
I hate such extreme moral relativism.
Believing in God is easy, but atheism is hard. Like I said, I tried. I'm only 19 and have seen so much evidence in my life of fate instead of chance that I can't accept anything else.
Giving up is easy. The problem is that you don't seem to understand what chance is.
Atheism is hard and I'm sure frustrating because you study and work hard for hours to develop knowledge and science, only so that someone can come along and say, "well God just did it all", because as far as I can see, no one has ever disproved God, through science or any other means.
You're working the wrong way. You're the one who has to prove God. If someone came onto my blog and said unicorns existed, I would expect him to produce a unicorn. You're expecting us to believe in something even more absurd than a unicorn, though, especially since theists love to change their definitions in between sentences.
Whats the worst that could happen? You believe and go to Heaven if I'm right, but if I'm not, you just turn to dust like you've already been planning, but the whole time you would have been living your life in a better way.
Don't try to appeal to our selfishness. We've heard it all before. Science is the most successful method we have for gaining knowledge. If you want a problem solved, knowing more about it is necessary.
As for living out lives 'in a better way,' I doubt it. I've met a lot of people like you telling me to tolerate evil.
Worse, making an exception for selfish comfort would be the first step towards 'crank magnetism'. If I believe one absurd thing because it makes me comfortable, where would I stop?
Even if you strip down the spiritual aspect of the Bible, it is still a great model for the moral and ethical code that we should all have for each other with great principles. It can make us all better people, so like I said just keep an open mind and give it a try.
Try reading the Bible sometime, and not just the half of the 'moral and ethical code' that you like. Might Makes Right is one consistent theme. Racism, moral relativism, hate, arbitrary ritual being valued over sentient life, mysticism, barbarism. It's all in there, and in far greater proportions than the occasional worthwhile gem.
Anyway, scooping up the gems and discarding the garbage as you suggest was what got me started. I was raised under the secular principles of love for others, fairness, compassion, and honesty. Those values demand that I denounce anything that tolerates savagery, which meant abandoning the Bible. I spent some time in some vague 'spirituality' before my education in critical thinking led me to my current conclusion.
Maybe you have before, but I can assure you that there's a right way and a wrong way to approach it. It's worth it to give God a chance because like I said, there's nothing to lose.
Doing the right thing requires knowledge. You would have us throw away our best tools for gathering knowledge for base, selfish desires.
This isn't about what we want, this is about what's right.
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